As the Biden administration enters its final weeks, NPR’s Mary Louise Kelly discusses what may be ahead for U.S. foreign policy on Ukraine and Russia with outgoing National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan.
MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Jake Sullivan has big plans for January 21. Sullivan is President Biden’s national security adviser – one of the most relentless 24/7 jobs in Washington, which is saying something. So when I sat down with him today at the White House, I was curious what he has in mind for that first morning after he passes the baton to his successor.
JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first, I will then be able to fully occupy my duties as a congressional spouse…
KELLY: (Laughter).
SULLIVAN: …Because my…
KELLY: Your wife…
SULLIVAN: …Wife, Maggie Goodlander…
KELLY: …Has just been elected to Congress.
SULLIVAN: …Was just elected to Congress from New Hampshire. She gets sworn in on January 3, so I’ll be a spouse even while I’m a national security adviser, but then I can devote myself to those duties. And then second, I will sleep.
KELLY: He will sleep. Jake Sullivan has not gotten much sleep while helping to steer America’s foreign policy. You can hear me question him on China and war in the Middle East elsewhere on today’s show. Here, I asked about the war in Ukraine.
President-elect Trump has said he plans to end that war on Day 1 of his presidency, if not before. Is that possible?
SULLIVAN: Look, I’m not going to speak about what the next administration can do and how long it will take. I wish them the best of luck because we share a view that this war ultimately does have to end in diplomacy. In fact, what we have been trying to do over the course of 2024 is put Ukraine in the best position on the battlefield so that it will be in the best position at the negotiating table.
KELLY: How worried are you that Trump will walk that back? Some of the changes – and changes you have put into place in terms of what kind of weapons are going and where they can be used.
SULLIVAN: Well, on the one hand, it’s clear from the statements that we hear from members of the incoming Trump team, some statements the president-elect himself has made in the past, that they want to see this war ended. And they have a different view of the Ukraine issue than President Biden and the current administration do. On the other hand, President Trump has prided himself throughout his career, both in public life and in private life, as being a dealmaker, as being someone who makes good deals. And so my hope is that he sees the logic that Ukraine needs leverage to get a good deal. And leverage means continued American support and a clear signal to Putin that if he’s not prepared to do a good deal, the United States is going to continue to have Ukraine’s back. If we pull the rug out from under Ukraine right out of the gate, that is not going to set the conditions for a good deal. And my hope is the incoming administration will recognize that.
KELLY: When there is a deal, whenever that comes – hopefully sooner rather than later to end that war – what keeps Vladimir Putin from going home, licking his wounds, rebuilding and coming back for Ukraine in two years?
SULLIVAN: I think it is an excellent question, a really important question, because the history of the war on Ukraine, of course, dates back now more than a decade to Putin taking Crimea and pausing, then taking part of eastern Ukraine, then pausing, and ultimately launching…
KELLY: 2014, yeah.
SULLIVAN: …His full-scale invasion in 2022 that we’re contending with now. What it requires is that the United States and our European allies make a long-term commitment to Ukraine’s security, anchor it in the West and Western institutions. Ensure that Ukraine has the capacity both to defend itself and to deter against future attacks by Russia. That is a critical feature of any just peace. And it’s something that we have been discussing with our European allies and our Ukrainian partners over months, and something that we’ve begun to talk about as we hand off in this transition to the incoming Trump team.
KELLY: And do you have visibility into what Putin would settle for?
SULLIVAN: Not really because, A, Putin has continued to assert very maximalist positions, both publicly and in his private conversations with the Europeans he does speak to. He hasn’t showed his cards yet. But I say not really as opposed to flat out no because, you know, we form assessments of what we think might be possible, and we’ve given advice to the incoming team about what we think might be possible. But it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to negotiate in public on that, so I’ll keep my counsel on it to behind closed doors with the incoming team.
KELLY: Jake Sullivan, thank you.
SULLIVAN: Thank you.
KELLY: That is President Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, speaking with us today at the White House.
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